The Siege of Neuss and the trial of Peter von Hagenbach 1474/1475
Ep. 214 – The Siege that Woke up an Empire (Neuss 1474/75) – History of the Germans
Transcript
Introduction
The venerable city of Neuss between Cologne and Düsseldorf was founded in 16 BC as a Roman army camp, making it one of the oldest in Germany. Its history is marked by the usual mix of feuds with its archepiscopal overlord and the establishment of a trading and pilgrimage hub. Despite its Roman remains, the impressive church of St. Quirinius, and proximity to where I grew up, Neuss may never have appeared on the History of the Germans Podcast, had it not sustained a 10 month long siege in 1474/1475.

Aarau, Aargauer Kantonsbibliothek, MsWettF 16: 2, f. 58r – Silbereisen: Chronicon Helvetiae, 1572
A siege, even a brutal and prolonged one is not sufficiently unusual to be included in the show. But this one merits almost a whole episode. Tales of the heroic defense of a small town on the Rhine against an overbearing foe intent on wiping out their way of life, coalesced the empire in a way it had not come together since the days of Frederick Barbarossa. A watershed was crossed, under the leadership of an emperor who was more surprised than anyone to be put at the head of the resistance.
And that is not all, in this episode we will also cover the very first trial for war crimes ever that took place in another small town in the same year 1474.
Christmas Present
But before we start a quick update on the Christmas Special. Over a hundred of you have already cast their vote. The survey is still open, so the final result will be announced next week. There is still room to sway the outcome. And by the way I am confident I have sent an invitation to vote to all patrons on all platforms.
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And with that, back to the show.
Recap
Last week we ended with the emperor Friedrich III and his son Maximilian making a hasty retreat from Trier, leaving behind an enraged, furious, angry, incensed, hopping mad duke of Burgundy.
Charles “Le Temeraire”, called the Bold in English, who should be named “the reckless” had good reason to be upset. Instead of a coronation as king of Burgundy, complete with crown, sceptre and splendid procession, he had been made a fool of by the penniless Austrians.

I do not have the time to give you a full psychological assessment of Charles the Bold, but if you are a little bit patient and you tune into the Grand Dukes of the West Podcast, Josh will give you a much more rounded picture than I could ever provide provide here.

And you can get the full backstory of the Burgundians.
Trouble in the Archbishopric of Cologne
Whatever his psychological make-up, an angry Charles of Burgundy, ruler of a dozen or so duchies and counties, overlord of the richest cities north of the Alps can be a problem, in particular, if one happens to live within crossbow shot of his borders.
After Charles had taken over the duchy of Guelders, it was the revered archbishopric of Cologne that had come within crossbow shot. And to make things worse, the Archbishopric of Cologne, had few shields left to fend off incoming projectiles.

Ever since the battle of Worringen in 1288, the Prince Electors of Cologne had been on the back foot. Their dominance in the Rhineland was crushed by a coalition made up of the city of Cologne, the dukes of Brabant and the counts of Berg. The archbishops had to retreat to – as John the Carre called it – a Small Town in Germany. Their once tight grip on their vassals, the noble lords and cities of the territory along the Rhine between Neuss and Andernach had loosened. The archbishops’ political standing locally and on the level of the empire was fading, territories were lost or pawned off.

Dietrich of Moers who held the post for almost fifty years, from 1414 to 1463, had attempted to consolidate the archbishopric into a coherent territorial state, whilst at the same time install his brothers and cousins on the thrones of the neighbouring bishoprics. That got the see of Cologne involved in several major feuds, including one with the city of Soest and one over who would become the prince bishop of Munster. These wars were extremely expensive and yielded little tangible benefit to the inhabitants of the archdiocese, except for members of the von Moers family. When Dietrich von Moers died in 1463, the archbishopric was technically bankrupt.

The estates of the various territories that made up the worldly possessions of the archbishop then forced the cathedral chapter and every future archbishop to sign an agreement, the Erblandvereiningung. This was another one of these agreements that granted the representatives of the local nobility and the cities decision rights on political, financial and military matters, including the decisions to raise taxes or go to war.
The gathering storm – Ruprecht of the Palatinate
Dietrich von Moers successor, Ruprecht of the Palatinate had signed off on this agreement, but almost immediately breached its provisions. He hired soldiers from his brother, Friedrich the Victorious of the Palatinate, and put them to good use. He regained some of the territories his predecessor had pawned away and bullied the estates. But soldiers are expensive. The archbishop needed cash and so introduced a flat tax per head and per head of cattle. That was pretty bad, but when he tried to snatch the customs station at Zons away from his own cathedral chapter, the cauldron boiled over.
The estates, supported by the cathedral chapter, referred to the right of resistance included in the Erblandvereingung, and deposed Ruprecht of the Palatinate. They elected Hermann of Hesse, a younger son of the Landgrave of Hesse as temporary administrator of the archbishopric. The rebellion was supported wholeheartedly by the cities of Cologne and Neuss.

In response the archbishop Ruprecht of the Palatinate gathered allies, which included his brother, Friedrich the Victorious and – most crucially – Charles the Bold, duke of Burgundy, Luxemburg, Brabant, Gelders, count of Holland, Seeland, Hainault, Flanders and Namur, advocate of the bishoprics of Liege and Utrecht etc., etc. With Charles the Bold came the duke of Cleves, another neighbour and battle hardened warrior.
On the face of it this rebellion was doomed.
Friedrich the Victorious – as his name suggests – had a reputation for being, well, victorious. He had fought in both the Mainzer Stiftsfehde and in the Princes wars and had been successful. He had captured his adversaries at the battle of Seckenheim and forced them to pay ransom large enough to sustain his powerful army.
But even this imperial war hero paled into insignificance compared to Charles the Bold. The richest territorial ruler north of the Alps had built up a standing army, equipped with the latest artillery pieces the masters in Bruges, Ghent, Mechelen, Milan, Venice and Augsburg could provide. He had issued detailed ordinances that set out the size of squadrons and companies, detailed rules on pay, leave, uniforms, equipment, the frequency of inspections, training and promotion of officers. He commanded a professional army, and one more heavily reliant on artillery than any other, safe for the army of Matthias Hunyadi in Hungary.

The siege of Neuss begins
In July 1474 this army, in total more than 14,000 men, entered the archbishopric of Cologne to put an end to this silly uprising. The estimate was for a campaign of a few weeks, at the end of which Charles would become the hereditary advocate of the archbishopric, aka the home of the imperial coronation chapel in Aachen would become a Burgundian protectorate.
The first place the mighty host encountered was the ancient city of Neuss. Neuss lies 35km north of Cologne and was one of the more important cities in the archbishopric. Its walls date back to the ancient Romans but had recently been reinforced. It was surrounded by water, its moat fed by three rivers, the Rhine, the Erft and the Krur.

Hermann of Hesse, the administrator and protector of the archbishopric appointed by the estates had come into Neuss with a force of maybe 3,500 men, bringing the total number of the defenders to 4,000.
The Burgundian army arrived at the southern gate of Neuss on July 29, 1474. They set up their headquarters in an abandoned monastery on an island in the watery marshes, positioned military units blocking each of the 6 city gates and the shelling began. Ten bombards, six mortars, and a large number of culverins, serpentines and other pieces of artillery fired at the walls almost constantly.
This was not just a siege, this was a Duke of Burgundy siege. Olivier de la Marche, one of Charles’ courtiers remarked: “It was one of the most beautiful and most generously supplied sieges one had ever seen. Our camp was like a city. There were craftsmen, wholesalers, textile merchants, fish mongers, grocers, barbers, carpenters, knife makers, labourers, lamplighters, [..] everyone fulfilled their own calling and lived with dignity in fine tents, that seemed to be have been set up to last forever. Some looked like towers, others had moats and drawbridges around them. There were also windmills, inns, taverns, cabarets and tennis courts, and anything else one’s heart could desire. As for desire that could be covered by the 4,000 ladies of flexible morals who had come along as well.

Inside the city of Neuss, the opportunity to play tennis or go to the cabaret was limited, nor were there fishmongers, grocers or barbers galore. The city was small, billeted with almost as many soldiers as it had inhabitants and supplies were hard to come by. With gates blocked by Burgundian soldiers, the only way to get things in and out was under the cover of darkness or during sorties.
These occasional sorties by the Hessian troops were surprisingly successful. More than once these fierce fighters managed to sneak amongst the Burgundian troops and caused utter havoc. Presumably Charles’ soldiers were too busy playing tennis or frolicking with camp followers in their fine tents to keep a proper lookout. Meanwhile the militia from Cologne would attack the Burgundian camp from the rear.
Charles grew increasingly frustrated with the slow progress. He was an enormously energetic man and he was constantly appearing in the different sections of the siege, encouraging his men, until they called him the flying duke as they could not figure out how he could be in so many places at the same time. And he did not spare his resources. He tried to divert the river Erft to drain the moat around the city and when that failed sank earth-laden barges to build a dam.
We are now 2 months into the siege and Neuss showed little signs of giving up, even though conditions inside the walls must already have been appalling. Ammunition was running low and casualty numbers were rising, whilst food was scarce. Still Neuss held out and will hold out for a further 8 months, outnumbered 4 to 1, an almost unimaginable feat of resistance.
why Defending Neuss – or the harsh rule of the Burgindians
Which leads to the question, why they were so stubbornly resisting. On the face of it this was a conflict about taxation and decision rights between the upper classes of the archbishopric of Cologne, not something your average Joe should be laying his life on the line for, let alone the life of his wife and children.
One reason for their resistance had to do with the reputation Charles “le Temeraire” of Burgundy had acquired in his still fairly young reign.
In 1467 he had burnt down the city of Dinant, and when I say burnt down, I mean burnt down, so that nothing was left. The reason was that Dinant had not only rebelled against the oppressive taxation by the Burgundian dukes, but had called Charles a bastard, the result of a tryst between his mother and the bishop of Liege. For this insult 800 citizens of Dinant had their hands tied up behind their backs and were thrown into the Meuse river. Dinant, once an important centre for the manufacturing of cannon and other metallurgy never recovered.

In 1468 -as we mentioned last week– he did the same to the even larger city of Liege that had rebelled for a second time. Again, total destruction, fire raging through the streets of wooden houses and citizens executed by the dozens, if not hundreds.

The inhabitants of Neuss were well aware of these events and they must have expected similar treatment should they let Charles the Bold enter their city. As far as they were concerned they had the choice of dying with a sword in their hand and taking some Burgundians with them, or drowning with their hands tied behind their backs.
So far, so comparatively normal. But in many respects events occurring before and during the siege of Neuss had developed an unusual, much more modern rather than medieval dynamic that explained the stubbornness of the defenders. And one of these events in the run-up to the siege of Neuss took place in Further Austria, the ancient homeland of the House of Habsburg, roughly modern day southern Alsace and Baden.
The Reign of Peter von hagenbach in Alsace
In 1469 Charles the Bold had acquired Further Austria as a pawn from Sigismund of Tyrol. Sigismund received 50,000 Rhenish Florins and Charles was given control over the territory in Alsace and the upper Rhine. I mentioned this last week saying that these lands in Alsace were an extension southward of the Burgundian territory, which is obviously geographical nonsense. It was an extension eastwards. Apologies for that. If you live in London, everywhere that has sunshine and wine is south.

Charles appointed one of his most loyal military commanders, Peter von Hagenbach as his governor for these lands. We have met Peter von Hagenbach already. He was the man who caught up with Friedrich III on his flight down the Mosel river. What Hagenbach did not know was that he had barely a year left to live after his epic row downriver.
Hagenbach was almost perfect for the job. He was originally from this part of Alsace, was completely bilingual in German and French and had spent most of his career in the service of the Burgundian dukes.
Hagenbach was a harsh man, very much like his master. He had commanded the artillery at Dinant and at Liege and had participated in the massacres. In his youth he had abducted a local merchant he had dined with the evening before, to extract a ransom payment. In other words an aristocratic hardman with scant regard for bourgeois city dwellers.
Hagenbach’s set objectives were to streamline these territories where the loose Habsburg rule had let things slip. The cities had gained a lot of freedom, revenue sources had dried up and taxes had not been collected. Hagenbach got to work. He replaced the independent city councils in Mühlhausen and Breisach, installed new toll booths on the Rhine and introduced a tax of one penny on each bottle of wine.
Tales of his excessive cruelty made the rounds. He had people killed without even giving the slightest clue as to why—many of them with his own hand. The slightest refusal to satisfy his whims was tantamount to a death sentence. In particular sexual depravity was placed at his door. He regularly raped nuns. Another alleged incident involved Hagenbach inviting a town’s married couples to his residence for a party. Once all were assembled, he removed the husbands from his residence and forced the wives to strip naked. Following this, he placed a covering over the head of each woman. The husbands were then ordered to return and inspect the naked bodies of the masked women. Those who were not able to identify their wives in this state were thrown down a long flight of stairs. Those who recognized their wives were rewarded by being forced to ingest copious amounts of alcohol that rendered them fatally ill.
The result was disquiet that gradually turned into rebellion. The rebellion was supported by the Swiss Confederacy who felt increasingly uncomfortable with the Burgundian presence right outside the gates of Basel. The tensions mounted to a point where the Swiss Confederacy and the regional free cities, Strasburg, Basel, Colmar and Selestat entered into the league of Constance. They went to Sigismund of Tyrol and offered to give him the money to redeem his lands from Charles the Bold. Sigismund sent 60,000 gold florins to Dijon, reclaimed Further Austria and appointed a new governor. Hagenbach refused to yield and took his stand in the city of Breisach. But he could not hold it. His soldiers mutinied and the city he had stripped of their civic institutions and liberties supported them.
The trial of Peter von hagenbach
In May 1474 Hagenbach was arrested. He was subjected to torture 6 times in the dungeons of the public prison before he was brought across town for a further set of torture sessions. By then his body was already so broken, he could no longer walk and had to be pushed across in a wheelbarrow.
What followed was one of the most unusual trials of the late medieval period. It would have not been unusual for Hagenbach who had confessed under torture to be immediately lynched by the populace. But instead, he was given a trial to take place in public on the main square of Breisach . The court comprised 28 judges, representatives of the cities of Further Austria, as well as the league of Constance. Hagenbach was represented by first one and then three attorneys of his own choosing, who put up a vigorous defence.

Many modern historians had tried to debunk the stories of the atrocities that Hagenbach had allegedly committed and indeed much had been reported long after the event. And it is notable that some of these, specifically the story about the married couples, did not make it on the list of accusations. The prosecution focused on four specific allegations, namely
- that he had four citizens of Thann summarily executed without trial,
- that he had broken his promise to protect the ancient laws and privileges of the city of Breisach by stripping the city of its self-governing institutions, illegally quartering soldiers, pillaging and plundering property and imposing onerous taxes,
- that he planned to expel and then exterminate the citizens of Breisach, and
- that he raped numerous women and girls in the region, including nuns.
Hagenbach argued as follows:
On item 1, the killing of the citizens of Thann, that these were rebels against Burgundian rule,
On item 2, the violation of the rights of Breisach, he believed the city had sworn a new oath to Charles the Bold and with that had given up their ancient rights,
On item 3, the planned expulsion and killing of the inhabitants of Breisach, what was there to say, so he said nothing,
On item 4, the rape of women and girls, he said everybody did that anyway and that he usually paid for it, which made it consensual.
To be frank, not all of these arguments cut it, not even in the 5th century. But one argument his lawyers brought forward got the judges attention. They argued that the court had no right to judge him. He was a servant of the Duke of Burgundy, had acted on his orders and hence only the duke of Burgundy had the right to judge him. “Is it not known that soldiers owe absolute obedience to their superiors?” he asked.
The prosecution countered that this defence was inadmissible. The acts he committed were acts against the laws of God and men. There was no need to ask the duke of Burgundy whether he had issued these orders since by claiming he acted under illegal orders, he was committing lese majeste.
The judges asked to be allowed to retire and deliberate on the weighty issue they were asked to resolve. Deliberations took a long time, but when the judges returned, one after the other declared Peter von Hagenbach guilty and condemned him to death.
Hagenbach was formally stripped of his knightly status, but allowed the privilege of execution by the sword. His last words were “please forgive what I have done through lack of wisdom or through malice. I was only human. Please pray for me”.

How the first conviction for war crimes affected the Nurnberg tribunals
This judgement has entered not just the history book but also legal textbooks. This was the very first trial for war crimes. By rejecting the defence of “I was just following orders” the judges in Breisach created the idea that there were acts that cannot be justified, crimes against humanity or as they called it acts against the law of God and men.
This case became important in the Nurnberg trials where some of the defendants argued that they had only followed orders. Convicting them for acts that were formally legal under German law would be a retroactive application of new criminal sanctions. The Anglo German lawyer Georg Schwarzenberger pointed to this judgment as proof that there was already an old tradition in German law that sanctioned crimes against humanity even if formally covered by statute.

To this day the Hagenbach trial is still occasionally cited by the International Court of Justice in the Hague.
And just in case you wonder how come you did not know this, let me tell you, you are not alone. I studied law in Freiburg, half an hour’s drive away from Breisach and I had never heard about this until I looked it up yesterday.
What the trial meant for the Empire in 1474
Apart from breaking new ground in legal theory reverberating for centuries, the execution of one of Charles the Bold’s most senior officers also had more immediate consequences. Once more Charles is found by his courtiers smashing furniture and shouting obscenities. He did swear revenge, but he could not immediately take action in Alsace since his army was already on its way to Neuss.
On the other hand, the League of Constance was aware that a confrontation with the duke of Burgundy was only a question of time, which made them natural allies of the brave defenders of Neuss.
And then the story of Peter von Hagenbach, his atrocities and trial spread rapidly across the empire. The trial and execution had drawn 4,000 people to Breisach. There is a letter in the Nurnberg archives that contains a detailed eyewitness report of these events. Strasburg and Colmar were shipping their wine to Cologne for distribution, accompanied by letters. Cologne in turn was a senior member of the Hanseatic League, one of the densest information networks of the period. Why that was, check out the episodes on the Hanseatic league. The important point is that by the late 15th century information travelled infinitely faster and to a broader audience than it had ever done in western europe since the fall of the Roman Empire. And we now have 16 printing presses running, including ones in Strasburg, Basel and Cologne. Nobody has found a pamphlet yet that talks about the Hagenbach trial or the siege of Neuss, but I would not be surprised if one turned up. We know that the bread and butter for 15th century printers wasn’t the great bibles and psalters, but schoolbooks, indulgences and public announcements. Very few of these survived, much like my copy of the Financial Times from last week. But that does not mean they had never existed. And as we will find out in the upcoming episodes, printers, engravers and woodcutters played a huge role in shaping views and opinions.

Whichever way news of the Hagenbach trial circulated, they did. This trial was important because it showed something new and fundamental, that the forces of the empire could come together and repel an intruder. An intruder who planned to attack their way of life.
the freedoms of the imperial estates versus the Modern state
Peter von Hagenbach may have been a particularly boorish and brutal man, but he was indeed following the orders of Charles the Bold. Charles wanted to force not just Alsace, but the entirety of his possessions into what we might call a modern state. A modern state where there was only one law, one court system, person that was allowed to use force. What he wanted to do away with were all these complex laws and privileges that granted cities or lords the right to dispense justice, condemn wrongdoers to death or engage in feuds.
When he burned Liege and Dinant, when he let Peter of Hagenbach loose on Alsace, he did not act as just some sadistic raging bull. He believed that this brutality was necessary to get the great cities of Flanders, Brabant, Holland and Hainault to give up these ancient privileges, their right to arm themselves and to resist ducal orders.
And he offered an alternative to the old system of confusing and contradicting individual freedoms. He set up the court in Mechelen, the sole court of appeal for all his territories. He passed a wide range of legal ordinances in an attempt to bring clarity and consistency to the practice of the lower courts as well. He consolidated the fiscal administration for the individual duchies to standardise taxation, and, if he had received his much coveted crown of Burgundy, he might have set up the estates of his kingdom, replacing the various representative bodies in place in each of his duchies, counties and bishoprics.

In this objective he was no different to most princes in the empire, only in the scale, speed, intensity and brutality he pursued it. And that put the fear of god into all these dukes, counts, cities, bishops and abbots on the western side of the empire. If the Burgundian juggernaut were to swallow them up, put new Hagenbachs in as governors and systematically dismantle their institutions and then, what would be left of what they called their freedoms?
News of Hagenbach’s acts is Alsace changed the way people saw the siege of Neuss. This was no longer a local power struggle between the archbishop and his estates, but a fight for the heart and soul of the empire. Despite all the talk about the urgency of imperial reform, the elites of this empire did like this complex system of interactions between the emperor, the prince electors, princes, bishops, abbots, imperial cities, free cities, immediate counts and knights, and within them the estates, guilds, councils and so forth. Yes it was unwieldy, ineffective but it had been created by their ancestors over centuries, one privilege and one charter at the time. They called it their freedoms, which is not the same as freedom, but still very different to the cities and nobles in France or England who were slowly but surely brought under the royal yoke.
At the same time the dozens of universities that had opened in the empire, produced a new elite of lawyers and humanists. Men sometimes from sometimes modest backgrounds rose to senior roles within the chanceries of all these dukes, electors and archbishops. And they rarely stayed with just one university or one employer. They had usually been to several academic institutions before passing their degrees. And once qualified they may work a few years for the emperor before moving on to a more generous or more interesting prince elector or duke. By constantly moving around they build relationships that spanned the empire from north to south and east to west. These networks exchanged information, views, ideas and occasionally coordinated to line up their masters behind a project they all supported.

The Glorious german Nation
Meanwhile the imperial lands were booming. New industries were emerging or taking the lead for the whole of Europe. Arms and Armour from Nürnberg, Augsburg and a dozen other places took over from the masters of Milan and Brescia, new techniques allowed German engineers and entrepreneurs to dominate European mining and manufacturing. The financial centre of the continent moved from Florence, Milan and Venice to Augsburg. What these innovations meant for people is best expressed in this 1460s printer’s colophon quote: “This excellent book, Catholicon, has been printed in the goodly city of Mainz, in the glorious German nation (which, by the Grace of God, the Almighty has deigned to prefer and exalt above other nations of the earth by gracious gift and so lofty a light of genius).”

There was huge pride in these achievements, in the way things were and were organised. And this pride was no longer reserved to a small elite of aristocrats, as it had been in the days of Frederick Barbarossa, this sense of being in it together was shared much wider.
The historian Len Scales places the Shaping of the German identity into the 14th century but it is in the 15th century that it is breaking through to the surface. The term “the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation” appeared a few years later, in 1486. But the Gravamina Germaniae, the complaints of the Germans about the role of the church were already read and discussed widely. Konrad Celtis, the arch humanist who would attempt a comprehensive Germania Illustrata by the end of the century had just embarked on his university career. It is now, in the second half of the 15th century that the idea of being part of a German culture, of sharing in the great innovations of the time and living in a unique system of government takes on political significance. The most influential historian of this period, Peter Moraw called this process Verdichtung, the densification or intensification of the constitution of the empire.
Freidrich III before neuss
And who do you think has been swept along with all this enthusiasm for the empire and its defence? The most unlikely of them all, the emperor Friedrich III.
Already in March 1474, so months before Charles the Bold arrives before Neuss did he demand the princes raise 20,000 troops to defend the archbishopric of Cologne. At the same gathering he banned Friedrich the Victorious, brother of the deposed archbishop of Cologne and called on his allies, Albrecht Achilles of Brandenburg and Albrecht of Saxony to lead an army west.
Initially reactions were lukewarm. But when Neuss refused to surrender, and held out month after month, the idea that the all-powerful Burgundian duke could actually be defeated was gaining traction. Enthusiasm built and built. Friedrich III, who had gone to Cologne, received offers for help from ever more far flung places. He was probably as surprised about this as we are. Even the Swiss Confederation, the arch enemy of the Habsburg for 200 years, offered to march under his banner.
He went to Andernach where in January 1475 he took command of a force of 20,000. He formally declared war against Charles the Bold in one of the first such modern declarations of war. He had to break a number of fortresses along the way, which is why it took him until March before he arrived in Neuss.

By then Charles’ forces had been pounding the walls for 10 months. Inside the city of Neuss the situation has become utterly desperate. They sent word to the imperial forces that they could not hold out for more than a few days, unless they get relieved.
Charles did not know that and his own situation had also become untenable. Some of his troops had mutinied and nearly shot him. He was due in Calais with his forces to help the English in renewed hostilities with the French. In Lorraine the duke Rene had called off the protectorate. The death of Peter von Hagenbach was as yet unrevenged.
Charles and Friedrich met and signed a truce. And they renewed their commitment for the marriage between Maximilian and Mary of Burgundy. The great dynastic link that would change the face of Europe is still on, even though the fathers of the happy couple had lined up their armies against each other.
Next week we will follow this leg of the story, find out what happened to Charles the Bold and the seminal engagement. But that is only one short story, the other, the bigger one about how the empire came to be what it became is gong to be with us or a very long time. I hope you will join us again.
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